The Best Men Podcast

Episode 13: The Rise of Toxic Masculinity

• Michael and Sameer • Season 2 • Episode 3

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Have you noticed how different the world is for boys growing up today compared to your youth? 

This week Michael and Sameer chat about the alarming rise of toxic masculinity among young men and how modern influences are reshaping male identity in troubling ways.

We unpack the BBC drama "Adolescence," using it as a springboard to examine how violence can manifest when young men feel marginalised. The shocking statistic that 67% of young men now feel compelled to display toxic or hyper masculinity demands our attention as parents, educators, and members of society.

What's particularly disturbing is how early these patterns begin. From the moment a toddler boy falls and is told to "man up", to the modern influence of social media where the hidden language of toxic masculinity proves especially concerning – coded emojis, "red pills," and references to "incel culture" are infiltrating primary schools, with children as young as ten being exposed to misogynistic ideologies. Unlike our generation who escaped bullying when the school day ended, today's youth face constant digital harassment that follows them everywhere.

So what's the solution? How do we raise young men to be confident without being toxic? 

Join us this week as we navigate these complex questions and search for better ways to guide the next generation of men.

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Michael:

Welcome to this week's episode of the Best Men Podcast. I'm Michael and I'm Sameer, and if you found us, it means you're looking forward to sitting back and enjoying 30 minutes of two best friends taking the piss out of each other, debating life's big questions whilst ultimately learning how to become better men.

Sameer:

So sit back and enjoy this week's episode.

Michael:

Yo, yo yo.

Sameer:

Hello, I'm going to pod pod pod how you doing.

Michael:

I'm doing good, very good. How are you? What's this?

Sameer:

accent. What's this accent?

Michael:

What's this accent? It's one I haven't really spoken for very long.

Sameer:

I know fine how was your week. Good, it's been a moment I feel like it's been a while since we've done this. I know what's going on.

Michael:

Busy, went into town, did some work today. Oh, that makes a change. Well, you know, like your dad said to me the first time he met my dad, the difference between me and him. He worked hard. I hardly worked.

Sameer:

He still says that all the time. I know All the time.

Michael:

Bless him, though. He needs something to say.

Sameer:

Yeah, true, how was going into town?

Michael:

Yeah, good, I went to Lidl, got my lunch today.

Sameer:

From Lidl. Yeah, okay, what did you?

Michael:

get Blackberries, raspberries, all that good stuff For lunch.

Sameer:

Yeah, it was, but you're grazing now. I was healthy.

Michael:

I only had a side of fried prawn tempura From Lidl. No, I got that from the restaurant.

Sameer:

Oh okay, I was going to say Lidl's up in their lunch game, so hang on. Your lunch was fried tempura, prawn tempura, prawn tempura.

Michael:

Prawn tempura. Prawn tempura, Blackberries, blueberries and strawberries.

Sameer:

Right. Is this a known diet, eddie Abu.

Michael:

It's the opposite of Eddie Abu. This is Eddie Abu approved. This is Eddie Poo.

Sameer:

Poo Shall, I tell you what I had for lunch today. Oh yeah, go for it. Oh, go for it. I don't go for it. I had, have you been to this place before? Called Assenheims? No, what on earth is that place? You need to go, mate. It's basically South American grilled chicken with rice and salad. This sounds good. It was great, but I don't think I'm ever going to get that. Imagine Nando's. But good, nando's is rubbish.

Michael:

So bad now? Unpopular opinion Nando's is rubbish.

Sameer:

I don't think it's unpopular opinion anymore. It used to be good, but now I think the price has gone up. The quality is down.

Michael:

Price is up, quality down. Same story.

Sameer:

Yeah, it's not good. This is what's happening across the board now, isn't it?

Michael:

Big news.

Sameer:

Yes.

Michael:

I went to the gym again.

Sameer:

Oh, do you have a regular day?

Michael:

Yeah, I do Tuesdays.

Sameer:

Okay, fine.

Michael:

How was this week? Hard, really Hard, yeah, really. Up your game now, have you? He gave me 17 and a half kgs in each arm and told me to lift it.

Sameer:

Oh my God, yeah, I nearly dropped it. What in a dumbbell?

Michael:

Yeah, I nearly dropped it on my head.

Sameer:

Jesus, wow, I mean it's going to get to the point where maybe you might enter the strongman competition.

Michael:

No, no, no, you might enter the strongman competition. Oh no, no, I'm not puginowski style. Who's the hell's puginowski? The famous mario puginowski from poland okay fine, actually his name is marius, but no one's really his friends call him mario. No one's fact checking us, that's right what, uh, what else did you do?

Sameer:

did you just do dumbbells that you almost, like, caved your head in with?

Michael:

uh, I did uh chest press the bench press dips and dip it low row, row press right, all these are new terms I've not heard of. I did lots of things, man, I'm wrecked after this session really yeah even he was tired. I'm like man. If the gym man is tired, I must be tired, does he?

Sameer:

actually work. I thought he just instructed you and laughed at you. I didn't know. He actually worked out with you. That was when we first started.

Michael:

Now, he's actually doing his work out.

Sameer:

Oh, now that you've upped your game, you're like proper gym buddies now.

Michael:

I can. A new achievement. Go on 600 downloads on the podcast.

Sameer:

Oh, 600 downloads. Now I'm somewhat suspect, because we've done fuck all in the last few weeks. So how have there been a hundred downloads if you are listening to episode?

Michael:

two celebrations, please.

Sameer:

Please message me on my dms michael has basically I don't know why I'm calling you michael spit you basically messaged me or spoke to me this week. You're like there's something going on someone, someone's, hacked the system.

Michael:

Someone is hacked us. Someone keeps listening to season one, episode two, and it's not even a good episode, Honestly my favorite episode.

Sameer:

We're such good marketers of this, aren't we?

Michael:

My favorite episode is the one where you're talking about the lizard on your honeymoon.

Sameer:

Yeah, that was my favorite of all time. Maybe we'll do a little throwback to our favorite bits, bits from season one. I don't even know why it's episode two so well. I don't know why it's doing.

Michael:

Well, it was celebrations and I can't remember what we even spoke about. That one episode accounts for a six. Accounts for 20 of our downloads over 100 downloads that one episode it's amazing.

Sameer:

Wow, wow. There are people loving episode.

Michael:

Yeah, go on going to say If you're listening to this pod right now and you've heard episode two.

Sameer:

Why are?

Michael:

you listening to it? Why do you keep listening? Why do people keep downloading episode two? That's what we want to know.

Sameer:

Basically, all we wanted to do this week is get on here for a few minutes and ask you specifically what you like about episode two. So we can do more of that, because we have no idea what we're doing, but I think it's bots in bangalore, I'm pretty sure.

Michael:

Is that a new website?

Sameer:

oh, hashtag bots in bangalore. I like it. Yeah, wow, okay well bots in botswana. Thank you for anyone who is still bots in botswana.

Michael:

We're putting the bot in botswana um, it's such a good campaign for the fintech sector of Botswana. That would be amazing, wouldn't it you?

Sameer:

should do that policy. I should probably do that.

Michael:

I'll be honest with you, though we don't have a Botswanan client so I don't know what we'll do, but yeah, big, big, big moment, you know, 600 downloads.

Sameer:

I don't know what we expected. What would you do if we got to?

Michael:

1,000? Gangnam style.

Sameer:

You're really giving away our age now.

Michael:

Gangnam style. Right, what would you like? Sabrina Carpenter, maybe we can do a flash mob as well Do you remember those?

Sameer:

Yeah, I like flash mob. I bet you did. Well, yeah, 1,000. I think we'll, I don't know, we'll do something special, maybe.

Michael:

Eddie Abu style. Don't know, we'll do something special. Maybe eddie abu style eat a bowl of cocoa pops when it gets to a million subscribers, maybe maybe what we'll do is we'll do we'll, we'll document a workout session together.

Sameer:

How about that?

Michael:

what live I'll come. Yeah, you're in the right.

Sameer:

Yeah, with glenn yeah, I'll come to glenn's on tuesday. Yeah, right, and I will interview glenn yeah right, I'll interview you pre and post workout, yeah, and I'll document what you're doing. Yeah, it's hard man, so listen if you want to see pictures of michael videos of michael working out in his little gym shorts. Get us to it. Listen to season one, episode two another 400 times listen.

Michael:

If you are one of those 400 listeners, tell us what's going on with that episode anyway.

Sameer:

Anyway, but what's this?

Michael:

episode about Sameer. Do you know?

Sameer:

As usual, no, as usual, no, I think this episode, the topic this episode am I right in thinking it's about toxic masculinity? Yes, something we don't have, something neither of us have Maybe after like 10 more sessions at the gym, you might have it Maybe. Yeah, is that why you go to the gym To get toxic. I don't know. People like raise their testosterone level, don't they? So maybe you come back from the gym and you end up being like a roid head Roider.

Michael:

Yeah, would you ever take steroids?

Sameer:

No, never you said that so seriously. What if it's Glenn, isn't it? Yeah, what if Glenn said to you Michael, listen, I'm really enjoying this, it's wonderful. I'm going to start taking steroids and I want you to take them with me and. I want us to basically like bulk up together, shoot up together.

Michael:

Yeah, what would you say? Or you can't come to my gym anymore. I'd say goodbye, glenn.

Sameer:

And he would say my name is not Glenn, it's Glenn. I say goodbye, Jim. You're under no circumstances.

Michael:

You know what One confusing thing, Jim, my name is Jim J-I-M. I go to the gym G-Y-M. Why, Jim? Jim, have you had a stroke?

Sameer:

Honestly Did you actually drop that dumbbell on your head.

Michael:

I have to say the English language is one of the weirdest ones out there. Very hard one it. I have to say the English language is one of the weirdest ones out there Very hard one.

Sameer:

It's a very tough one.

Michael:

It makes no sense, I'm learning words with my daughter at the moment. Okay, she's five and I'm trying to teach her the words. Okay, I'm sounding them out and as I sound them, they don't sound like English anymore. Give me an example. So we're learning your like your microphone.

Sameer:

Yeah, y-o-u-r, yeah, and I'm learning hour O-U-R.

Michael:

So she says to me hour H-O-U-R. Oh, this is going to be so complex. How do you explain to a five-year-old the difference between one hour of time?

Sameer:

and hour time? Yeah, makes no sense. When you work it out, let me know I'll do it with my mum, because I don't think my mum knows the difference, yet Honestly, sometimes she was like what's this word W-E-R-E, where Okay? And what's W-E-A-R when?

Michael:

Yeah, it's really and what's W-E-R-E.

Sameer:

What's W-E-R-E, w-e-r-e, w-e-r-e.

Michael:

Yeah when. Exactly, you're getting confused now, If you're getting confused Not where as in how do I get there?

Sameer:

Where, where when.

Michael:

Where is what he was saying, oh man?

Sameer:

It gets confusing after a while. So what did you do? Did you? Were you there for like four hours? I pivoted to this. Right now I can't do this.

Michael:

I'm not into this. Right now it's too early in the morning to be talking to you about this.

Sameer:

So to our topic Toxic masculinity. Oh, toxic masculinity. Firstly, you didn't say masculinity, you went masculinity. And secondly, you didn't say toxic, but toxic masculinity.

Michael:

Well, yeah, do you know why? There's a few reasons I wanted to talk about this this week. Okay, the first is this program that everyone's talking about.

Sameer:

Yeah, go on Adolescence, not just in preparation for today, but independently of that, I've watched it all.

Michael:

How did you manage to watch it all?

Sameer:

I told you the other day, like literally a day ago, I've seen episode one and I've just crammed them all in. Oh man, have you seen?

Michael:

it? I haven't, but should we play a game?

Sameer:

Go on.

Michael:

I'm going to tell you what I think it's about.

Sameer:

Okay.

Michael:

Based on the fact that I've only heard second and third source accounts. Okay and you haven't seen any of it. I haven't seen one iota of it. Okay fine, go on Right. I haven't seen one iota of it. Okay fine, go on Right. This is my version of adolescence.

Sameer:

Okay.

Michael:

All right, mate, what's going on? Yeah, you're a prick. Oh, you want to be friends? No, I've got no friends. Oh, here's some emojis. I don't know what they mean. All right, what's over there? Go over there. Go over there. Let we've got to run away. Oh, burn your clothes, Don't. I'm going to send you incel. Incel, involuntary celibate. I don't even know what that means. Here's another emoji. Here's another emoji. Then, police have come. Someone's dead. Episode one done.

Sameer:

Right. Here's my review of what you said Under. In which world, right? Do you think kids today are saying blaps? In which world do you think the word blaps is still being used? We? We shouldn't have been using that when we were teenagers. What makes you think blaps? Is the language of today.

Michael:

That was episode one okay episode two go on please all right, mate, what's going on? Don't tell the police. It was me, it was you, all right, it's got cct footage. Okay, let's do it. Here's some more emo. What's going on? Don't tell the police. It was me, it was you, all right, it's got CCTV footage. Okay, let's do this. Here's some more emojis. What's over there? I don't know. I don't care, smash up your phone. I'll move forward.

Sameer:

I'm going to blub you in the face, I'll move down. Oh what the police? Sounds a lot like episode one, but go on. All right, let's speed this up a bit. How do you think this show comes to its?

Michael:

end and conclusion. Will you please rise for your honour? You were so serious then. James D Martin. You have been found guilty for murder on three accounts. You will be sentenced to life imprisonment. You're over, you're over, you're, you're game over how many judges.

Sameer:

I feel like that should be like a petition for us, that now we need to get the the courts in the uk saying you're over at the end of every judgment.

Michael:

That is my understanding. Fine, or or, and then, and then maybe there's a little bit of oh, you're not a man unless you, you know, kill someone.

Sameer:

Okay, fine, I mean bits of it are in there. Blaps isn't but bits of it are.

Michael:

On a scale of Rotten Tomatoes of accuracy, Okay 100% being 100% accurate, 100% of that is what happened. I would say that's about.

Sameer:

Let's give it a solid 50%. That's not bad. Half of it is about right yeah.

Michael:

That's basically. That means. I've seen it?

Sameer:

No, you've got the basic concept, but, yeah, you're missing half the details. All right, so what happened in adolescence? So, spoiler alert in case no one's seen it. Firstly, because we never do this. We just go in and we reveal everything, right? Spoiler alert In case go in, uh, and we reveal everything, right. Spoiler alert in case anybody doesn't want to know what happens in adolescence. Listen to season one, episode two, right, okay? So basically, this kid, yeah, yeah, ends up um stabbing one of the girls in his class oh wow, it's a girl it's a girl.

Sameer:

Basically, the first scene is the police break into this house yeah, saying where is he?

Michael:

where is he? Where is he? Where is he?

Sameer:

blaps, blaps, blaps and immediately you think, oh, it's going to be like the dad or some like old person, like some 20 year old, and they break into the room and it's like this 13 year old boy who's got like a car bed and like stars on his wall and and you look at this and you're like what's going on? Taken into custody. Whole first episode is like what's going on, what's going on, what's going on. Family is taken to the holding cell in the police station and they're like why have you arrested my child?

Michael:

He's 13.

Sameer:

And then when we have strong evidence to suggest he has murdered a fellow classmate wow and basically what happens is is he denies it, denies it, denies it. He's crying. Brilliant actor, by the way. This kid is going to do like amazing things.

Michael:

Thank you, thank you yeah, thank you for your review.

Sameer:

I'm just saying as a as a well-known critic of tvs, tv shows, I think he's great anyway. Basically he's crying. He says to his dad look, you believe me, don't you? I didn't do it. And the dad's like listen, you tell me now once, and only once, I'm gonna ask you did you do this, did you do it, did you and he looks him in the eye and he says, dad, I did not do this no, I've learned, go on don't trust your children, don't trust them.

Michael:

They're liars. They're liars, yeah where, where, where where where were you on the? Night I was wearing clothes no, not.

Sameer:

What were you wearing? Where were you?

Michael:

I'm not a werewolf what are you wearing on that night of the 11th nine?

Sameer:

yeah, true um couldn't do a joke. I was trying to think of it, I was about to say my address and I was like, hang on a sec, we're talking, I can't put this on a podcast. So, anyway, what transpires is there is a CCTV video showing this boy with a knife in a car park stabbing this girl, kicking her away, stabbing her and walking off. So there's clear evidence.

Michael:

Isn't that the end of the show.

Sameer:

Yeah, so that's what you think, that happens at the end of episode one yeah, so what could they? Do Drags on a bit for the next three episodes. But, basically at the end of episode one. Yeah, and then what could they do? Drags on a bit for the next three episodes, but basically, um, this boy is unhinged and to your point he is basically this girl was intimidating him by sending him all these emojis that you were saying incel, incel stuff and like kidney beans and all this.

Michael:

So this whole thing about like toxicity, male toxicity, and it's the in cell, what is in cell?

Sameer:

involuntary celibacy. What is that? From my understanding, is that a? Virgin. It's basically um you. You want to have a girlfriend yeah right, or you want to have a partner or whatever, and you're unable to do so because you're ugly or because you're not popular or because you're not good-looking. Basically it's wanting a girlfriend but not having one, and then you get bullied for that so this boy was getting bullied for not having a girlfriend so then he killed her.

Sameer:

So yeah, so this girl was basically sending him on Instagram like all these emojis and these these responses to like his posts and they're all like, like. If you don't know about it, you wouldn't know. Like it's all these emojis, what? What does a kidney?

Michael:

bean mean. What does a red pill mean? You're saying it's the girl's foot.

Sameer:

she got stabbed.

Michael:

No, I'm not, that's that's what he's saying Right, the boy is saying because she.

Sameer:

She was a cow to me, she was intimidating me and I lost my shit. I lost my rag and I killed her.

Michael:

See, this is the thing. This is what I find really nuts. I'm deliberately just so you know I'm deliberately not mentioning the person's name of where this kind of new movement's come from, because I don't believe that he deserves any credit for anything in this world. Okay, I think I know who you're on about, but there's a statistic now in schools that 67% of young men feel compelled to display either hyper or toxic masculinity.

Sameer:

You know what it's got to be social media. This it has to be. What else can it be?

Michael:

But do you know who the original perpetrator is? That right perpetrator yeah the original perpetrator of male toxic masculinity no you're gonna get shocked when I tell you this no idea. The stoics, really, really, because the stoics are all about believing better and you're a man if you can support your family and even if you aren't like, what's his name, is it? Seneca. Yeah, he breaks his slave's leg, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah and then, and the slave basically says nothing and he's like you're gonna break my leg, you're gonna break my leg.

Sameer:

Yeah, then he breaks his leg and he's like look what you've got undone.

Michael:

Yeah, I I don't know you don't like that, do you I? Yeah, I don't know you don't like that, do you? I don't know if I fully buy it.

Sameer:

I don't know if I fully buy it, because it's a stretch. It is a bit of a stretch, but what I would say is I think that whole philosophy has been warped and twisted and remolded into whatever this toxic masculinity is, it's vogue now.

Michael:

Look at Rishi sunak before he lost his election yeah a man is a man, a woman is a woman yeah look at trump and all the idiots in america. Yeah, all right. Not not the public, I mean the government well, you know this. This whole male toxic masculinity is really like the narrative right now.

Sameer:

I mean, listen, it's got cut through right to the top of like government. They're saying look, we basically need to ban smartphones in schools for kids under 16 if you're probably quite smart.

Michael:

If you had a kid, would you give them a smartphone?

Sameer:

no, uh, or if I did, it would just be literally a bloody brick. I would, I would like I would have on lockdown every single app like you can have the phone app and call me, and only my number is in your phone and your mom's obviously but you're not having access to like snapchat, and and and tiktok and instagram and all this kind of stuff like it just didn't exist when we were growing up.

Michael:

I've gotten, I'm so far behind, like well, social media didn't exist when we were growing up.

Sameer:

I've gotten, I'm so far behind, like well, social media didn't exist when we were growing up.

Michael:

We, we grew up. Well, here's the thing we didn't grow up with social media no we were, we were grown, yeah we, we went.

Sameer:

We basically 2005-6, I reckon, is when facebook was, was basically yeah, but we were adults yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying. We were in uni then and even then we probably because it was like the first wave, like me and you are nerds that way we, you know we didn't have access to all this stuff we didn't, but imagine if you had, access to it from like the age of 12.

Michael:

I mean it's going to, it's going to affect you.

Sameer:

No, no shit and so anyway, look, there's loads of stuff though, like um, this whole, like I didn't until you sent me this message with all these emojis and red pill, blue pill, kidney beans, all this shit. What does it mean?

Michael:

The teachers at school. At a primary school, the eldest children are what? 10, 11?

Sameer:

Did they send that to you they?

Michael:

sent us this email. They said red pill is used in certain male-dominated online spaces to signal a belief that they've woken up to the hidden truths about women and society, often linked to toxic and misogynistic ideas. What the hell does a?

Sameer:

bloody. Does a 10-year-old know about this?

Michael:

What does a 9-year-old care? Also?

Sameer:

can I just say the reference there is also to the Matrix, red Pill, blue Pill but again, what 10-year-old is watching the Bloody Matrix?

Michael:

But again, what 10-year-old is watching the bloody Matrix? Oh, mate, the other one here. So you've had friends who've sent you this emoji right the 100.

Sameer:

No, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the 100, yeah, yeah, keep it 100.

Michael:

I thought 100 meant like 100% oh 100%, 100%, oh, okay number one. Number one I thought 100% was like a good thing. Apparently, the kids now use 100 connected to the so-called 80-20 rule, the belief that 80% of women are only attracted to 20% of the men. So male toxic masculinity is rife at the moment. Yeah, it's throughout the schools.

Sameer:

Yeah.

Michael:

It's affecting men's mental health. Boys, do you know what age it starts at? Do you want to hear this gone? Three years old? No, I think 18 months old, that's what I've heard it. What do?

Sameer:

you mean by that? What do you mean? It's starting at 18 months old.

Michael:

18 months old, they don't even know where, where and where if, if a child falls down immediately, if it's a little girl, you give them a cuddle yeah it's a little boy, but come on, stand up, man up walk on, but is that toxic masculinity?

Sameer:

that's how it starts right okay, it starts. It starts with the physicality but we had that, we had that it starts with the vulnerability not being able to your dad.

Michael:

Classic example dad, I've really hurt my leg. Okay, let me smash your arm in now.

Sameer:

You'll forget about your leg yeah, true, or actually your dad when you fell over in the paddling pool.

Michael:

Oh, dad, I broke my arm. That's okay, stretch it and have an ice cream. You never went to the hospital, for that did you I went three or four days later after it had reset and was broken.

Sameer:

But you know, the wonderful thing about that is now you can do that weird thing with your arm. It's not a wonderful thing, it is. It's like your gimmick is your usp, your dad. Your dad was like I could take him to hospital and his arm would be fine. But then what would be interesting about my son? Now he can bend it in weird ways not like a circus act.

Michael:

Maybe that's what he thought he could monetize it so so yeah, I mean the physical aspects of it, there's the mental aspects of it, there's even the monetary, like I've got to earn the most amount of money because I'm a man, I earn lots of money.

Sameer:

Well, and if you're arnie, I want to earn lots of money that doesn't sound like arnie, that sounds like gunter, so what, but we had this when we were growing up. I don't know if we did, we did. You had it when you were growing up. Your dad didn't like take you to the hospital, yeah, but If you were a girl you probably would have been taken. That's true, yeah. So you had the same thing.

Michael:

Speaking of just going to quickly pivot.

Sameer:

Please.

Michael:

I had my family over for my son's birthday.

Sameer:

Yeah.

Michael:

And we were talking about memories of when we were young and when we were children. And do you ever know the story of when I went to school during the holidays and my dad left me there by accident.

Sameer:

Do you know the story? No, I don't. I don't think I know the story, so it's. Easter holidays.

Michael:

Yeah, my mum says okay, I've got this story. So it's Easter holidays. Yeah, my mum says, okay, I've got a uniform ready to go to school tomorrow. Yeah, you can't. Yeah Went to school. Dad took me in the car, dropped me off early because he was going to work, left me at school, in the car, in the playground, said all right, have that outside the classroom. Waiting for it to open 8, 45, 8, 50, 9 o'clock, no bell. Ah, maybe the bell's not working because it's after the holidays.

Sameer:

9, 10, 9 20, 9, 30, what the?

Michael:

hell were you doing outside? Yeah, uh, year two of our primary school. I was waiting. Why School didn't start for another week? So what did you do? How do you think I met? You know, I said to my dad in that moment. I said you're lucky I didn't get abused. I looked at him and I said you're lucky that the person who found me and who let me ring on the telephone Because back then I didn't have mobile phone, I didn't have social media.

Michael:

Yeah, I was was just you're too young to use it. What did I do I? I rocked up to like the um groundsman house, groundsman's house, in the middle of like the groundskeeper willie, I went to this house and I'll see his telephone that's quite, it looked at me like I was an absolute idiot in my school uniform, my school bag bag. He goes oh, you're not supposed to be here for another week. Yeah, I know that. Funnily enough, it's 11.30. I've worked that out by now. Odd how no one's around.

Sameer:

But the good thing is obviously this had no impact on you because you didn't remember it. What do you mean? I didn't remember it. You told me, somebody told you this story no, no, I remember the story very well.

Michael:

Okay, I thought somebody was telling you this story.

Sameer:

We were being we're reminiscing on it fondly do you remember that one day michael has been scarred for life.

Michael:

Do you know what my sister said to me?

Sameer:

what did she say?

Michael:

you're the idiot. You didn't know you should have gone back to school so early.

Sameer:

She's like my kids know exactly when they're gonna go to school. It's like you know what, you've got a point why did I just? Blindly listen. How old, what age were you?

Michael:

how old? Probably eight okay, fine yes, I can find you ready to do it no, no, I just think it's hilarious.

Sameer:

So what happened you would do? You remember what you did?

Michael:

yeah, I managed to phone my dad at his office. Michael, I'm busy. Who's it? Michael put him a Not that guy. Again, he's always bothering me. Tell him I'm going into a meeting, I'm just about to close this deal. What do you want? I'll wait till the end of the day.

Sameer:

Can I just wait how? Could you imagine Dad, dad dad, dad, I need you to pick me up, Not right now, wait until 5pm.

Michael:

I'll tell you when school's over.

Sameer:

Oh my God, that's actually amazing.

Michael:

So in terms of male toxic masculinity.

Sameer:

Yes, so we did suffer from it.

Michael:

Why.

Sameer:

What you just said. What If you were a girl? If you were your sister right, Do you think that would have happened to you? Or do you think your dad would have made more of an effort to?

Michael:

come quickly and pick you up. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it happened to my sister as well.

Sameer:

Your dad would have made more of an effort to come quickly. I'm pretty sure that happened to my sister as well. Okay, fine, probably worse. Okay fine. Back to hilarious. By the way, hilarious, but this week. Why do you think kids today suffer from more toxic masculinity or issues around that than we did as children?

Michael:

definitely number one. Social media. Number one. Number two whatsapp. Apparently, whatsapp is the worst thing that kids can have, really, yeah, because you know what someone said me. They said that you know when we're at school, right, and we had a bad day at school we'd come home, that's it. We'd start to unwind, we'd have our family yeah we'd have our play, um uh, game boy, we'd have a game boy, game boy, and and that would be it, and you'd unwind.

Michael:

Yeah, now with social media, you're getting bullied throughout school yeah you go home, phones go on boom, bullied again constant, constant boom they're not. They're not like sort of bomb diffusers not from calcutta, um, but yeah, it's whatsapp. Is is whatsapp. It's bad chat, it's bad any metal and he from metal.

Sameer:

So you mentioned two things that you mentioned. What did you say? Toxic and hyper masculine. What's the difference?

Michael:

hyper masculinity is I should be a man. Um men are stronger than women. Toxic masculinity are women are worthless and deserve nothing right toxic masculinity. Is that one step further to just annihilating anything that women deserve?

Sameer:

right, okay, and both are on the rise, both on the rise. Yeah, ah, it's tough it's tough, but this is also like nowadays, everyone keeps saying oh, you know, the most deprived group is is young men I think they say africans. No, no, like back when we were growing up, how we deprived that's not us not us specifically, but young single men, especially men maybe coming from working-class families or that haven't gone to university, that don't have many career prospects because the whole world's against them. Everything is about being PC.

Michael:

What are you on about? Who says this?

Sameer:

Everyone, man. This is why there's this whole rise in incel stuff. It's like men feel. I don't agree with this, by the way, but men feel like they are being marginalized and being picked on, and you know what everybody else in life is doing a bit better everyone else but young, typically white men of rubbish, that's, that's.

Michael:

That's the undercurrent idiot for why all this shit is happening if you you're anything but a white man, you're already deprived and you're already against it.

Sameer:

I think it's totally the opposite.

Michael:

I think you should rise up against the white men. Rise up Everybody, come on, rise up Hamilton. Reference nice, we love a bit of Hamilton Hashtag to our sponsors Hamilton oh.

Sameer:

I want to go watch that again.

Michael:

It was very good when I saw it.

Sameer:

But you know what the thing with you is right is when I tell you to go do something.

Michael:

I don't do it. You don't do cuz I oh, there's too much expectations that everyone's ruined is not gonna live up. It's just like did it live up? I have to be honest with you the first half absolutely lived up. But I've always said this I thought that I think the first act of Hamilton is so much better than the second.

Sameer:

I don't know. I thought it was all great. I think it's the best life. It's the same as adolescence, the first one. You haven't seen any of it.

Michael:

I'm now at 60%.

Sameer:

I can say that with credibility You're probably more than 60% now.

Michael:

No, I do like Hamilton News. Jesus, I told you my knees Go on, by the way, when I used to love you, john Legend.

Sameer:

Oh yes, You're going to see John Legend Booked. John Legend Nice.

Michael:

But for me John Legend is the opposite of toxic masculinity. Jl, jl, jl.

Sameer:

John Lewis JL. John Legend, john Lowe JL.

Michael:

John Legend is the opposite. He's got a lovely wife. Chrissy Teigen very nice life, sings songs about loving women. Yeah, you know?

Sameer:

yeah, true, we're just ordinary people we're just ordinary people exactly so you, who would you say is if you could think of one artist singer, we're just ordinary people, we're just ordinary people. Exactly so. Who would you say is if you could think of one artist, singer male that personifies toxic masculinity, or one celeb that you think right, they're not good, you ready? The opposite end, before you say, is John Legend. So, who's the opposite end of that?

Michael:

Toxic masculinity.

Sameer:

The most toxic figureton john wow, I didn't see that one coming. Elton john, yeah, yeah I mean I'll be honest with you, like elton's a homosexual man not when I'm talking about him he's a homosexual man. You don't normally think that that would be the poster child I'm referring to Benny and the Jets, those back in the day when.

Michael:

Elton was an out and out.

Sameer:

He was definitely right up there really what, what I don't know why money, drugs, strength, power strength. He went to Glenn's gym, glenn's gym, glenn's gym. Could you imagine you were up that one day? To glenn's gym in hilton johnson what do you think?

Michael:

what do you think? Who do you say it's the male?

Sameer:

the most toxic. It's got to be diddy right yeah, yeah, I would say diddy, or did he? Or I would say maybe the game who I went to see?

Michael:

in concert. I honestly cannot believe you went to see the game. I I first of all. I'm shocked that the game managed to actually perform well.

Sameer:

Here's the thing he was shit so um, he got no game. He got no. Oh, hashtag, no game. Um, so my brother's-in-law basically booked it ages ago and they were like, oh, we've seen him, he was great. I was like, okay, cool, you know, I want to go out, I want to spend time with him, it'll be a good laugh. Who the game? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We went out with him afterwards for a mixed grill, did you really?

Sameer:

No, but that would be amazing amazing, um, and I was like, yeah, cool. And then I suddenly realized I said this to my wife. I was like I don't know any songs from the game so what am I going to do? I'm just going to rock up and like pretend like I know what he's doing once he started singing I knew a couple of them, like the ones with like um, but this is annoying.

Sameer:

He did ones with 50 cent but all the ones, but he didn't do them because he's fallen out with 50 cents so he doesn't even bloody do them. So the only songs I knew he wasn't even doing useless game. So the game um came on half an hour late, 40 minutes late, left 40 minutes early so he basically was on stage for probably under an hour. That's so bad and I it was honestly. We went there and I was like I'm gonna get injured.

Michael:

So you know you got these. You know you got these brothers. Yeah, do you have like a name like do you have a name for you guys like band of brothers? No, we have.

Sameer:

We haven't got a group name yet sam and the brothers it'd be good.

Michael:

Actually, we need one, you should get a name and then get t-shirts, yeah you see, this is the opposite yeah of masculinity. This is camaraderie it's camaraderie.

Sameer:

Yeah, exactly, but yeah, I would say the game like the game, by the way he's talking about how much can I swear?

Michael:

can I? Can I swear on this? You shouldn't really, because people might play it while the children around okay, but there's a song where he talks about the singer maya.

Sameer:

I'm very derogatory to Otter.

Michael:

Very derogatory.

Sameer:

So I'm like I know, but he gets away with it because that's kind of like his shtick.

Michael:

You know I have to go back to this idea that you have brothers.

Sameer:

Yeah, brothers-in-law, but yeah, like brothers, is it weird having brothers now. You know what's weird? I'll tell you what's weird Having brothers that are my age.

Michael:

Are they your?

Sameer:

age yeah, they're all my age, like 36, 37, 38. But you look older than them, though. Right, I look younger, my friend, and you know that as a bald man, you can't tell what age.

Michael:

I am oh a baller.

Sameer:

Yeah, baller.

Michael:

Baller, baller baller.

Sameer:

I wish I was a little bit baller. Oh great, oh great, border I. It's nice because all the brothers-in-law that I've had in in my life previously have been like 10, 20 years older than me, exactly so, and they feel more like kind of like young dad homies. Well, they, the older ones, felt like dads, but yeah, they feel at homies.

Michael:

Yeah, um so look, when I think the whole part of this episode it's met the toxic mess and l. It's clearly very different to what we went through. We weren't texting Jill to say, oh, I'm a man, I'm going to go and have sex with you Do you think there are many Jills these days? All right, janet.

Sameer:

No, it's probably like Kaya or something, or like Shanaynay. What's up, girl Shanaynay it.

Michael:

What's up, girl Sinead? It's your man, michael Bizzle, here, Michael. Well, I don't know what. Don't make me blab to you up, sinead, I'm an alpha.

Sameer:

No, no, no Names these days. I'm skit. Names these days are like all these exotic, like, oh, it's Mango. Bay Cube or Maya, or Kaya, or like.

Michael:

Blossom Bay. What you say, say, say I'm a queen, a slave, my name Blossom Bay. That's what kids are like today. They're not like that at all.

Sameer:

There's no one called Blossom Bay.

Michael:

Oh, my day.

Sameer:

Oh, my day.

Michael:

Blossom Bay. Kill me, oh dead, I'm, gassed, I'm dead gassed. This is what they talk about.

Sameer:

Is that what you if you were a kid? Is that how you'd talk today? Do you reckon? I've got no idea. I think even today, if we were kids, we wouldn't talk that way. I don't think we would, but that's the thing, yeah, again we were excited to go Sega Mega Drive somewhere and I could get a big, big bowl of discos. I'd be so happy.

Michael:

So to loop back to our topic this week toxic masculinity. And my point is this In a world where we are so driven to be stronger than everyone, richer than everyone, have more money, have a bigger house, have a hotter wife, have more money, have a bigger house, have a hotter wife, have more children bigger muscles bring it back to those days where it was easy, yeah but anyway, on that note, on that bombshell, on that bombshell.

Sameer:

Anything else to add to me? No, no, as always. Uh, you know, we hope you enjoyed today's episode and uh, look after yourselves and remember you can follow us, like and subscribe on all of our socials.

Michael:

Big shout out to anyone on tiktok or on instagram and thank you for listening on spotify and apple music. I think that's all we've got time for this week. And remember, in a world full of troubles, of male toxic masculinity, always be the best.